The biggest problem with the Java community is not dishonesty. It's not people taking fake names on The ServerSide, it's not the rather rare nameless bloggers with questionable opinions, and it's certainly not the fact that somebody out there somewhere may be naive enough to take the results of the JDJ Readers Choice poll seriously.
The big problem with the Java community is that we need to take a collective deep breath, count to ten, and chill the fuck out.
- Webwork users tell us that Struts is shit.
- JBoss users tell us commercial appservers are shit.
- The Core Developers Network split off because Marc Fleury is a wanker.
- Nine out of ten randomly surveyed friends of Hani think JBoss is shit.
- Every Java project hosted by Apache is shit, except the ones that originated elsewhere.
- Every JSR is shit, except perhaps for Portlets.
- EJB3 will be shit because everyone should be using JDO
- JDO is shit, vice versa.
- And so on...
I can't think of any online community that fosters so much negativity within itself: that has such an entrenched inability to focus on the positive. Other languages have seven thousand different web frameworks as well, but they somehow seem to coexist in relative harmony. Other online communities have their arrogant, objectionable members, who are appreciated for their positive contributions, but routed around when they get annoying. What makes us different? Is it because Java isn't in itself interesting enough to become impassioned about, so we must fragment it until we find things that inspire us?
So what can we do about it? The unrepentant cynic in me (who was also responsible for my previous post) says there's nothing. You can't change the nature of people, and the nature of our community is conflict.
The less cynical side of me says that we're at an interesting point, because the recent exposé of JBoss fakery has given us an insight into just how sick the community is. As reprehensible as the whole business was, it's a symptom, not a cause, and attacking the symptom alone isn't going to make anyone's life better. Now, perhaps, with one side of one of the Java community's perpetual floating flamewars weakened by its own actions, it would perhaps be possible for the stronger side to demonstrate humility in victory, and thus provide an example to move forward with, rather than further censure.
Then the unrepentant cynic reminds me again that people don't change, and that I'm not exactly a sterling role-model for what I'm suggesting, and I have another beer.
"The problem with the Java community is not dishonesty, but its overwhelmingly adversarial nature (admittedly, something I'm contributing to right now)."
...and when you delete technical comments just because a person chooses NOT to give out their real name. Even if I did give you my real name, you still wouldn't have a clue who I was. I think it's more ethical to give a name everyone knows isn't real than to pretend I'm someone else.
I'm not sure why I'm posting this because you'll delete it anyway.
So it's past 11:30, I'm tired, but I think I understand what you are saying and I'm nodding along. Cool. I like it when your unrepentant cynic takes a break - your writing becomes uplifting.
As you say, the way forward involves humility and grace. I'd add that it requires big helpings of humility and grace from all individuals, for quite some time.
We'll know we have succeeded when forthright exchange of views takes the place of name calling and abuse.
I think the problem not in negativity but rather in a lack of critical thinking.
"You can call it shit but I will disregard your opinion until I hear both your reasoning and the answer of your opponent."
Charles: "..it would perhaps be possible for the stronger side to demonstrate humility in victory, and thus provide an example to move forward with, rather than further censure."
Agreed. This isn't about the company, or the individuals, it is about the behavior, and I (and others) have _tried_ to carefully point that out. (Hani excepted, but the bile blog is .. well, it's bile.)
Further, it was not the hyperactive boosting of a product that broke the camel's back, it was the veiled personal attacks and the use of this behavior to attempt to silence and/or discredit people who have a right to participate in the community.
In other words, if this is to have the effect that was intended, it will produce a _removal_ from play of one of the most poisonous forms of censure, not any addition of censure.
As for your "unrepentant cynic," that part exists in each of us, and is as natural as the irrational tendency of humans to continue to hope in spite of our own intimate knowledge of humanity.
Peace.
I don't think the Java community has that much negativity percentage wise. There's certainly a high volume of negativity, but it's balanced by a high volume of positive content as well.
I think the reason you see as much negative posting/blogging/etc is two fold. First, it's a really big community compared to many others. It's widespread, and when you have a big pool of people there's going to be more variation. Secondly, there's lots and lots of money involved. Money, power, and sex seem to simultaneously bring out the best and worst in people. And a technical community lacks the sex part (despite the efforts of some :-) so we double up on the other two.
Given the amount of money floating around in Java land, it's inevitable that certain people will do whatever it takes to draw attention to themselves and try to bolster their bottom line. They don't give a rat's ass about community, but often they're good at sugar coating their messages and make it look like shiny, happy community-friendly information - when in fact it's a bunch of lies packaged in a sweet smelling words.
When there's money around, these kind of people will be around. The question then becomes: do you let these people take over the communities, or do you fight back? Yeah, I could ignore the shennanigans going on and post nothing but cheerleading articles and some technical pieces, and let the spammers and anonymous fakers and vapid cheerleaders do their own thing. But if I did that, I'd be helping to destroy the communities I'm a part of. It doesn't require direct action to help perpetrate a crime - it's pretty well established that you can be just as guilty through inaction. If I stand by and watch someone do something wrong, and I have the ability to take some action to correct it but do not take it, aren't I just as guilty as they are?
There could be a shiny, happy Java community I suppose where we all sang folk songs, patted each other on the back, and swapped technical ideas. But given the number of people and money involved, such an overtly positive community would be based on a bunch of lies. I'd rather have a real community, with all the warts, bumps, blisters and occasional nastiness, and work to root out the worst behavior when possible and try to make it better. I would far prefer such a community to a community that ignores problems. In this situation, a bunch of individuals have broken the trust that binds a community together. You can either choose to condon it (including condoning it through inaction), or make your voice heard that such behavior is not acceptable.
You can choose a real community, with all the pain suffering and joy that human interaction promises, or a fake one. Real Java, or Stepford Java?
Word up! I just can't understand why people are whining all the f*cking time. We're all in this together, relax, take a deep breath, count to 10, and get back to writing good software. It's just ones and zeroes goddammit.
Oh, EJB on the other hand *is* shit. ;-)
(Yes, just kidding, of course!)
When you're focused on a small number of personailities, and calling them a "community", then you're going to see a bunch of political bullshit and in-fighting.
The real world has a lot of people working hard, producing working software using a variety of products, frameworks, and technologies. They're even using Struts, EJB, etc. And, oh yeah, they're using RUP as well.
I'm sorry, but the people you mention here are not the thought leaders in the Java world. Most Java developers have never heard of them, and couldn't care less.
No-one: While I discourage anonymous posting, it's actually quite unusual for me to delete a comment if the only thing going against it is anonymity. I can't remember ever having deleted an anonymous comment that was both on-topic and intelligently written.
If you take the time to read the RealNamesPlease page, you'll see that I I merely encourage people "as a courtesy" to provide their real names, and "reserve the right to treat anonymous comments with contempt".
That said, I may have deleted such a comment of yours in the past and just not remember, in which case I don't apologise: this is my personal website, and thus subject entirely to my mercurial whim.
charles, you are bang on about the storm in a teacup thing. the trick is to recognize that it is indeed a small storm -- in a small teacup. i don't think it really matters a lot outside the blog-o-sphere. i mean, on my project there are two of ten developers who even know what the bile blog is. most developers are content to use the tools that companies provide them or they can download for free. they don't care about ejb 3.0 vs jdo as they are still struggling to come to terms with the only-at-j2ee-1.3 version of websphere (or whatever) they use.
Well, Charles, you have every right to see it as a storm in a teacup - and my thoughts are similar, but the issue *I* have with it is that it's indicative of a much larger storm in a much larger teacup. It's not just JBoss, not just the reader's choice polls - those are simply one aspect of what Rickard and Cameron were addressing, and I won't insult your intelligence by explaining the larger picture to you.
In my opinion the current state of the "Java community" has two reasons:
1.
The Java language itself. Several language aspects imply a specific way of thinking which builds on a certain state of mind. That's why some languages will never die out. This is also true for licence aspect.
2.
Profit. Java was invented to make profit and i guess Sun will never do anything that could cut it. That gathers a crowd of people for which profit is also No. 1 priority. For example have I never read a forum before where somebody asks for coding specific help and gets for answer from a guys who has written a adequate package before a link to his homepage where you could download a whitepaper and buy his library! (was also somewhere on TheServerSide.com)
Java seems to attract idealists. Idealists tend to be passionate and express strong feelings and opinions.
Most of us are just looking to get the job done. We'd like to use the best tool possible, and while we have our favorites and preferences we aren't fanatical about them.
The expression is (or *should be*) "Tempest in a Tea Cup." Note the aliteration.
Alliteration. Crap.